I am about to start my A-Level Computing project (High School Level) which will hopefully be a point-of-sale application for Mac OS. Unfortunately, Objective-C is a little out of my league at the moment and should I get stuck with it in the project I have no one to help out so I would fail the section of the course and not get into University. So this is quite important to me.
I want to use Python to develop a Cocoa app. I know that I need PyObjc, however all details on the net seem to assume it is pre-installed. Apparently this is the case with Leopard and Snow Leopard but I don't seem to have it on Snow Leopard and never noticed it on Leopard. Also, I have tried installing the latest beta of PyObjc by following the instructions on the Sourceforge page, but with no luck.
I would really appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on what needs to be installed, how, and links to any resources or tutorials that could help me.
Thanks in advance for the help!
Update: I see that this is a popular question, I just got the 'Notable Question' badge for it so I thought I would update anyone coming to this page on what I did after getting the answers.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to use Python to create a Mac application. This was rather disappointing at the time, but probably a good thing. I made a Windows app in C# for my project, it was a tool for creating and running Assembly apps in a simulated environment. My course teacher has now started to use my tool to teach the course instead of his own! I got a very high score on the computing project (over 90%) and this contributed to me getting an A* in my computing A-Level (the highest grade available) and I consequently got in to Southampton University to study Computer Science.
This summer, I decided to make an iPad app (soon to be released) and I am glad to say that I know think I could make a Mac OS application in Objective-C as I feel I have learnt enough. I am glad that I took the time to learn it, it is a great language and really useful with iOS becoming so popular.
Sorry for all the boasting, but I am really happy about it. What I really want to say is, if you are coming to this page hoping to use PyObjc to create Mac apps easily, don't bother. It takes some time and some effort, but once you have learnt Objective-C, it is really satisfying to create apps with it. Good Luck!
Allow me to echo what has already been said. I too am a student who just started a Cocoa development project, and at the beginning I thought "Well, I already know Python, I'll just use PyObjC and save myself from having to learn Objective-C, which looks beyond my grasp." I learned quickly that it can't be done. You can develop for OS X without learning Objective-C, but not without learning the Cocoa libraries, which constitute 99% of what you need to learn to write a Cocoa app in Objective-C. Objective-C itself isn't that hard; it's the Cocoa libraries that you need to invest in learning.
PyObjC basically uses Cocoa libraries and Python syntax. I gave up with it quickly and decided that if I was going to have to learn Cocoa, I may as well use Objective-C.
If you're looking to learn, Aaron Hillegass's book is a good place to start. Good luck!
You mean like Checkout? :-) I only mention it because Checkout is gorgeous and written with PyObjC...
Your concerns are valid, although probably not as much of a potential showstopper as you'd think. Using PyObjC still requires you to learn some Objective-C, and definitely requires you to understand at least some of the Cocoa frameworks, since you need to call into the Cocoa frameworks whenever you need to do some sort of Cocoa-specific task.
I recommend you read and consider the SO question "Why is the PyObjC documentation so bad?" and "PyObjc vs RubyCocoa for Mac development: Which is more mature?" before you completely convince yourself that "just PyObjC" will make things much easier. I refuse to disparage PyObjC because it is quite powerful and incredibly useful, but realize that nothing is a silver bullet, and no language or technology is best for all problems.
The Objective-C language is simple and pretty straightforward. The Cocoa frameworks generally dominate the learning curve for new Cocoa programmers. Plus, you have StackOverflow and lots of other resources to help answer your questions. (Judging by the activity of the "pyobjc" tag, you also stand a better chance of getting good Objective-C help on SO.)
And as one of the Checkout developers I'll weigh in too (hi Quinn!). From what we've seen PyObjC runs fairly well on Snow Leopard. We've built one of the latest SVN revisions 2.2b with some customizations on Leopard and just moved over the site-packages folder.
Theoretically you should be able to use the built in Python/PyObjC (just do import objc, Foundation, AppKit) but as we ship/work with custom versions of both Python and PyObjC I'm not sure what the status exactly is. The mailing list doesn't mention a lot of people having issues (just a few) so that could be a good sign.
Good luck with the project, and if you have specific POS questions shoot me an email ;-)
I hardly use PyObjC myself, but I believe you need to run the Xcode installer on the Snow Leopard DVD in order to use PyObjC.
Also, as Quinn said, you will need to understand at least some Objective-C in order to use a Cocoa bridge like PyObjC without tearing your hair out. It just doesn't insulate you that completely.
I'm going to agree with Quinn here. Even if you're already proficient in Python, learning how to interface Python and Cocoa is not going to be any easier than learning Cocoa with Objective-C.
Objective-C is a simple, clean language that is quite easy to grok. Building the GUI and hooking it up to the back-end will be harder than learning the Objective-C to write the back-end, and building the GUI and hooking it up isn't that hard.
Follow the Cocoa app tutorial (you should be able to get through it in a day, or maybe a weekend if you go slow) and you'll be well on your way.
I'm a long time python developer who's been doing iPhone apps for awhile now (and only using my python knowledge to package up build files for the apps in run scripts), then who started making some PyObjC apps.
I'd have to say, PyObjC is pretty much STILL having to learn objective C (which I already know via iPhone dev), however you get several pretty cool benefits if you use it instead
Easy use of python libraries you know (faster for you)
Option to drop it and go to wxPython if styimied by Cocoa
Somewhat faster development time (you're writing less code, and the translation between the two languages is pretty darn easy to get used to).
Additionally, interface builder is a little tricky to get used to comparatively speaking, but if you're a python dev, it's not like you're exactly used to a functional gui builder anyhow :oP
Related
I'm learning programming and have been working with Ruby and ROR, but feel I like Python's language better for learning programming. Although I see the beauty of Ruby and Rails, I feel I need a language more easy to learn programming concepts, thus Python. However, I can't seem to find a community online or offline that work on Apple osx; mostly seems to be PC people for Python. What I like about Ruby is that there is a lot of books, communities, etc, and they tend to have a good amount of Mac resources. Would someone be able to point me to an google groups, forums, etc for beginner Python programming that may have tutorials, or help for people running on Mountain Lion? I'm feeling a little frustrated and caught between the Ruby Vs. Python paradigm, and just want some mac specific resources working with latest Python and eventually Django.
Thanks for any help you may be able to offer!
Mac OS X 10.8 comes bundled with Python 2.7.2 found at /usr/bin/python. Generally in the Python world your operating system is abstracted away, so there aren't that many OS-specific communities. Apple fully embraces Python, however, and you can even write fully native applications using Python.
My suggestions to get you started would be to:
Install homebrew - This is an open source package installer for Mac OS X, inspired by Debian's apt-get or RedHat's yum. This will allow you to easily install many of the system-level dependencies like database servers, NoSQL servers, system libraries, and so on. You will inevitably be required to install this stuff as time goes by, so it's best to have the right tool for the job!
Install pip - The Python package installer. You won't regret it. This will allow you to easily manage external Python packages.
Check out the official Python tutorial. It's quite good, but also assumes you have at least basic understanding of programming.
Check out Learn Python the Hard Way, a free e-Book by Zed Shaw, which assumes no prior programming experience and is very, very easy to follow.
These should keep you busy for a while!!
Based on my project, which is the best version of Python to use? Which is the best IDE to use that runs on Linux (Ubuntu) and Windows? Here is the background for these questions:
I'm building a small application GUI that features "drill-down" views and direct manipulation on personalized calendars. Should I use Python 3, the newest version, or an older version is better at this GUI task? I've heard that some of the old GUI libraries do not support the new version yet, but not quite sure if this will matter a lot. Could you please name the libraries that might be relevant? Even better if you could suggest your preferred IDE either under Windows or Ubuntu. Many thanks.
You can use vim as IDE.Start program with 2.7 version with 3.0 in mind.Have a look at this python 2 or 3
Depends a bit on which GUI you use. If you're using PyQt, it supports v3. wxPython, however, does not.
As a rule of thumb, for now, you can pretty much use python 3.0 syntax in 2.7, and keep things compatible going forward. I'd say, except for print statements, the differences aren't that mind-blowingly different between 2-3. IDE's pretty much support both - and gnud's links are pretty good for that.
Popularity
When selecting a framework to learn, popularity is a reasonable gauge of how good a framework is, and how easy it will be to get support when you run into problems. The tags on stackoverflow are a quick way to get a ballpark idea.
Environment
Start with what you're the most familiar with. When learning something new, there is so much to absorb, that having something familiar really helps.
For example, when I taught myself python a year ago, I used pydev in eclipse, because I've been a cross-platform java developer using eclipse for quite some time. Made life much easier.
If you're starting from ground zero, it doesn't matter very much. Pick something popular that you feel comfortable in and start coding. As you become familiar with what you're doing, you'll be able to compare other packages and determine if it's right to switch.
The popular IDE's are cross-platform. Graphics packages too, although usually one is stronger on unix or windows.
SublimeText2 has excellent Python support.
Also you can use PyDev for Eclipse.
About versions: I think you should write 2.7-compatible code, but be ready( and know how) to update it to 3.2 or later.
I'd recommend starting with 2.7 since most libraries work with it. The differences between both are not too big, so you might even be able to switch if you want to in the future. But before you choose Python 3 and you find a library you really want to use and it's not available for Python 3 you would regret choosing.
wxPython and PyQt are pretty popular. wxPython doesnt support 3 yet...
I prefer PyCharm it's not free but it's so great and it has so many features...
One of the best code-completion i ever had for Python.
P.S.: if its really simple you mgiht even consider using tkinter.
I have a little programming experience and I did get to work with Swing (Java) and wxPython.
Some years ago, I ended up having to port an app I did to OS X and all the problems I've had with wxPython just multiplied. I've started looking at alternatives and I could not find anything better than wxPython. QT was the only one that came even close. GTK was hell on Windows (last time I checked).
I don't think my predicament is unique, some other people might have reached the same position over the years.
So, why isn't there a GUI toolkit to have the following characteristics:
Simple. Basic windows/dialogs (native open and save) + a basic set of widgets with SOLID Layout management. Additional (composite widgets) implemented as additional libraries.
Actively maintained on OS X, Linux and Windows
Actively maintained bindings to at least 3 high level languages.
Actively maintained documentation for best practices GUI devel with examples using the toolkit. MVC/MVP properly explained. GUI HIG (Apple style) simply explained, complete with semantics, paradigms, best practices, alignment, proper spacing and TONS of best of their kind examples from successful pieces of software.
A simple way of building a distributable executable for the 3 targeted platforms in each of the languages.
Implemented as close to the metal using readily available libs like Clutter, cairo, etc.
Are these requirements too much to ask? If yes, why?
Help me understand why isn't there such a tiny lib available?
Have you tried Qt? It is a cross platform C++ GUI toolkit for higher level language (PyQt). And it seemed very simple to me.
What you ask is a simple lib with enormous flexibility. Be able to build 3 * 3 executables, having good documentation and using other libraries all with a different background. And all of that on different OS platforms. It is quite a challenge it think QT would com the closest but it does not meet all your criteria.
SWT? You can use it from Java, Python (well, Jython), Ruby (well, JRuby), Groovy, LISP (well, Clojure), and anything else that runs on the JVM.
It's simple-ish, it uses native widgets under the hood, it's actively maintained, and because you're distributing either a JAR or a JAR and some interpretable code, there's a unified build process. I can comment on its documentation, nor its proximity to any sort of metal.
I recognize that this is probably not the answer you were looking for.
My guess is that windows developers couldn't be bothered as they have wpf etc and linux developers couldn't be bothered as they are used to it. So only people who are sick of win developement and moving to linux would embrace it. Maybe its time for you to start an open source project :) I was thinking something like wpf but based on opengl would be a good start.
The Tk toolkit meets most of your requirements, except maybe for number four. It's very cross-platform, uses native widgets when possible, is easy to use, etc. The requirement for distribution is hard to meet because that depends on the language, but when used with tcl, you can use tclkits and starkits which are an absolutely fantastic way to distribute code (essentially, your single-file executable has an embedded virtual file system that can contain all your assets -- code, images, etc).
For more on the cross language, cross-platform features of tk see http://www.tkdocs.com
WXWidgets seems a good fit as well.
I am a Python/web programmer.
Now, I would like to transition to building applications for the Mac.
Please tell me--what do I have to learn to get started?
What books would you recommend?
Assuming that you included the "python" tag after considering that it will be interpreted as applying to the question and not the questioner, you must be interested in writing Python applications for the Mac, right? After all, you didn't include "web" as one of the tags too.
If that's true, I'm not sure what more you need to know already, other than perhaps picking a GUI framework, if you want to write GUI applications.
I use wxPython quite successfully for applications which run on OS X (and Windows). Very few Mac-specific issues have cropped up to cause trouble, primarily because both Python and wxPython are remarkably cross-platform. The few that have come up are by and large documented and have known workarounds, or the resolution is fairly simple to find.
I've needed no books on the subject, and really know very little about Macs. It really hasn't been a problem so far.
The programming language of choice for building OS X gui applications is Objective-C with Cocoa, I would recommend that you check out some books on that. There are python bindings for Cocoa but they are not optimal.
You should check out previous questions looking for books on Obj-C and Cocoa.
The background
I'm building a fair-sized web application with a friend in my own time, and we've decided to go with the Django framework on Python. Django provides us with a lot of features we're going to need, so please don't suggest alternative frameworks.
The only decision I'm having trouble with, is whether we use Python or Jython to develop our application. Now I'm pretty familiar with Java and could possibly benefit from the libraries within the JDK. I know minimal Python, but am using this project as an opportunity to learn a new language - so the majority of work will be written in Python.
The attractiveness of Jython is of course the JVM. The number of python/django enabled web-hosts is extremely minimal - whereas I'm assuming I could drop a jython/django application on a huge variety of hosts. This isn't a massive design decision, but still one I think needs to be decided. I'd really prefer jython over python for the jvm accessibility alone.
Questions
Does Jython have many limitations compared to regular python? Will running django on jython cause problems? How quick is the Jython team to release updates alongside Python? Will Django work as advertised on Jython (with very minimal pre-configuration)?
Decision
Thanks for the helpful comments. What I think I'm going to do is develop in Jython for the JVM support - but to try to only use Python code/libraries. Portability isn't a major concern so if I need a library in the JDK (not readily available in python), I'll use it. As long as Django is fully supported, I'm happy.
Django does work on Jython, although you'll need to use the development release of Jython, since technically Jython 2.5 is still in beta. However, Django 1.0 and up should work unmodified.
So as to whether you should use the regular Python implementation or Jython, I'd say it's a matter of whether you prefer having all the Java libraries available or all of the Python libraries. At this point you can expect almost everything in the Python standard library to work with Jython, but there are still plenty of third-party packages which will not work, especially C extension modules. I'd personally recommend going with regular Python, but if you've got a ton of JVM experience and want to stick with what you know, then I can respect that.
As for finding Python hosting, this page might be helpful.
I'd say that if you like Django, you'll also like Python. Don't make the (far too common) mistake of mixing past language's experience while you learn a new one. Only after mastering Python, you'll have the experience to judge if a hybrid language is better than either one.
It's true that very few cheap hostings offer Django preinstalled; but it's quite probable that that will change, given that it's the most similar environment to Google's app engine. (and most GAE projects can be made to run on Django)
I have recently started working on an open source desktop project in my spare time. So this may not apply. I came to the same the question. I decided that I should write as much of the code as possible in python (and Django) and target all the platforms CPython, Jython, and IronPython.
Then, I decided that I would write plugins that would interface with libraries on different implementations (for example, different GUI libraries).
Why? I decided early on that longevity of my code may depend on targeting not only CPython but also virtual machines. For today's purposes CPython is the way to go because of speed, but who knows about tomorrow. If you code is flexible enough, you may not have to decide on targeting one.
The downside to this approach is that you will have more code to create and maintain.
Django is supposed to be jython-compatible sinc version 1.0.
This tutorial is a bit outdated, but from there you can see there are no special issues.