I'm developing a web application and considering Django, Google App Engine, and several other options. I wondered what kind of "penalty" I will incur if I develop a complete Django application assuming it runs on a dedicated server, and then later want to migrate it to Google App Engine.
I have a basic understanding of Google's data store, so please assume I will choose a column based database for my "stand-alone" Django application rather than a relational database, so that the schema could remain mostly the same and will not be a major factor.
Also, please assume my application does not maintain a huge amount of data, so that migration of tens of gigabytes is not required. I'm mainly interested in the effects on the code and software architecture.
Thanks
Most (all?) of Django is available in GAE, so your main task is to avoid basing your designs around a reliance on anything from Django or the Python standard libraries which is not available on GAE.
You've identified the glaring difference, which is the database, so I'll assume you're on top of that. Another difference is the tie-in to Google Accounts and hence that if you want, you can do a fair amount of access control through the app.yaml file rather than in code. You don't have to use any of that, though, so if you don't envisage switching to Google Accounts when you switch to GAE, no problem.
I think the differences in the standard libraries can mostly be deduced from the fact that GAE has no I/O and no C-accelerated libraries unless explicitly stated, and my experience so far is that things I've expected to be there, have been there. I don't know Django and haven't used it on GAE (apart from templates), so I can't comment on that.
Personally I probably wouldn't target LAMP (where P = Django) with the intention of migrating to GAE later. I'd develop for both together, and try to ensure if possible that the differences are kept to the very top (configuration) and the very bottom (data model). The GAE version doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, as long as you know how to make it perfect should you need it.
It's not guaranteed that this is faster than writing and then porting, but my guess is it normally will be. The easiest way to spot any differences is to run the code, rather than relying on not missing anything in the GAE docs, so you'll likely save some mistakes that need to be unpicked. The Python SDK is a fairly good approximation to the real App Engine, so all or most of your tests can be run locally most of the time.
Of course if you eventually decide not to port then you've done unnecessary work, so you have to think about the probability of that happening, and whether you'd consider the GAE development to be a waste of your time if it's not needed.
Basically, you will change the data model base class and some APIs if you use them (PIL, urllib2, etc).
If your goal is app-engine, I would use the app engine helper http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/appengine_helper_for_django.html. It can run it on your server with a file based DB and then push it to app-engine with no changes.
It sounds like you have awareness of the major limitation in building/migrating your app -- that AppEngine doesn't support Django's ORM.
Keep in mind that this doesn't just affect the code you write yourself -- it also limits your ability to use a lot of existing Django code. That includes other applications (such as the built-in admin and auth apps) and ORM-based features such as generic views.
There are a few things that you can't do on the App Engine that you can do on your own server like uploading of files. On the App Engine you kinda have to upload it and store the datastore which can cause a few problems.
Other than that it should be fine from the Presentation part. There are a number of other little things that are better on your own dedicated server but I think eventually a lot of those things will be in the App Engine
Related
I'm running Django (1.5) on App Engine and I need to use some kind of key-value cache. I know App Engine's memcache API and also the Django's cache framework. I wonder which one should I use.
On one hand I would like my code to be as portable as possible for migrating it to another cloud platform. But on the other hand I would like to fully utilize the services offered by App Engine.
Is writing a custom cache backend for Django that will use the App Engine memcache is the best solution?
Tzach, I think you're already answering your question.
Putting your app in GAE and not using the services provided by Google it doesn't look to me as a wise decision, even more, when those features are key for performance at the same time free or very cheap.
On the other hand, the embedded default cache in Python is not guaranteed to give its best results under GAE, as GAE instances are not a normal server where you'd run your django instance, e.g. instances can be shutdown at any time.
These special characteristics found in Django are tuned in the django for GAE versions.
For that reason, and taking into account that using the GAE memcache is also straightforward, I'd recommend you using the easiest ones to add to your application.
And, if in the future, you move to another platform, there will be more things to change than the key-value cache.
My two cents on that is to focus firstly in getting the job done and secondly in optimizing the performance on GAE and only afterwards to start thinking on things to improve.
I've been learning python for use in ArcGIS and some other non-web applications. However, now that I've taken on building a personal website I am interested in using it for web development (as it is the only scripting language I currently know).
I've noticed that there are a lot of these things called "frameworks", such as Django. From what I understand they are just a collection of packages to save you from re-inventing the wheel but I don't really know how they work.
Furthermore, I do not like GUIs, if I need a framework I would like to find one that could be used through a terminal, starts out simple and can be scaled for more complexity when I'm ready. Any advice or ideas on frameworks and why I would want to use one?
The Python web frameworks have nothing to do with GUIs, and can all be used via the terminal.
The benefits of a framework, as you say, are all to do with making your life easier by supplying the components you need to build a website: the main ones are database interaction through an ORM, a templating system, and URL routing. On top of that, the big frameworks also included optional extras like user authentication, administration interface, and so on.
Personally I like Django, but your mileage may vary: I would say, though, that whatever you do with Python and the web will require some sort of framework, even if it's one of the absolute minimal ones like Flask which basically do just the routing part. There's simply no point in writing all this stuff from scratch when it's been done for you.
I'd second the post above: Django is a great framework and will save you loads of time in the long run.
Pretty much every challenge you'll come across when writing a web application will already have been solved, e.g. How do I send emails? What about an admin interface to edit the data? User security?
In my view picking the best framework is all about the ecosystem around that framework. How well used is it? Is it discussed widely on the internet? Have others encountered, and solved, the problems I'm facing?
In terms of where you start, see the Django Tutorial here:
http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.2/intro/tutorial01/
If you think Django offers you too much, I'd recommend that you take a look at CherryPy just to compare the different, and much simpler, approach.
With Python, you've got lots of options. To start, I would recommend looking here -- it explains the basics and provides a fairly complete list of frameworks.
If you're looking for something that starts out simple but can also handle more complexity, then you should take a look at web2py. It requires no installation or configuration, has no dependencies, and includes a web server and a relational database. It also includes an optional web-based integrated development environment and admin interface, but you can work through the terminal instead if you prefer.
It's very easy to learn and was designed for ease of use, faster development, and security. You can get a lot done with very little code thanks to the included scaffolding app along with many sensible default behaviors. As things get more complex, web2py can handle it, as it is a well-integrated full-stack framework with lots of built-in functionality, including a database abstraction layer, form handling and validation, access control, web services, and easy Ajax integration.
Personnally, I don't use any framework, I write either from scratch on BaseHTTPServer, or using WSGI (with mod_wsgi).
It is a bit long to write the skeleton, but I think it is faster (I mean at runtime), there is less constraints, and there is lesser to learn.
I keep hitting road blocks with Django and have read about Pylons. Pylons seemed to be exactly what I needed (greener grass), but then I realized that they have global variables all over the place and loads of black magic infused by dark spirits (spirits so dark that they even kill unicorns).
Is there anything out there that is enterprise worthy (ie, doesn't impose performance or scaling restrictions), stays the hell out of my way, but provides the basic request/response handling, sessions, SQLAlchemy (perhaps), and a way to plug in templates, etc? Is there any hope?
I've been trying to develop an SAAS in Django, which is a nightmare. They don't support multiple column primary keys, and there are a number of other problems with ModelForms, etc that you don't run into until you're developing a more complex application (especially with multitenancy. I don't use their auth system and don't need to as I built my own. I just need security (CSRF, XSS, SQL injection, etc).
The most hard-core low-level web-framework for python - Werkzeug - http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/
Flask: http://flask.pocoo.org/ It will look like an entry-level framework, but in fact it's extremely powerful. It's based on werkzeug and support Jinja2 out of the box. I'd go with this one. You can get easily integrated SQLAlchemy with extensions like flask-sqlalchemy and WTForms (similar API to django.forms) with flask-wtform. There are tons of useful other extensions for it, like extensions that add the ability to use mongodb and couchdb easily. What's most notable about flask extensions is they provide very consistent behavior and there is an actual approval process for them, as opposed to django reusable apps 95% of which are a mess.
I am thinking about using Google App Engine.It is going to be a huge website. In that case, what is your piece of advice using Google App Engine. I heard GAE has restrictions like we cannot store images or files more than 1MB limit(they are going to change this from what I read in the GAE roadmap),query is limited to 1000 results, and I am also going to se web2py with GAE. So I would like to know your comments.
Thanks
Having developed a smallish site with GAE, I have some thoughts
If you mean "huge" like "the next YouTube", then GAE might be a great fit, because of the previously mentioned scaling.
If you mean "huge" like "massively complex, with a whole slew of screens, models, and features", then GAE might not be a good fit. Things like unit testing are hard on GAE, and there's not a built-in structure for your app that you'd get with something like (famously) (Ruby on) Rails, or (Python powered) Turbogears.
ie: there is no staging environment: just your development copy of the system and production. This may or may not be a bad thing, depending on your situation.
Additionally, it depends on the other Python modules you intend to pull in: some Python modules just don't run on GAE (because you can't talk to hardware, or because there are just too many files in the package).
Hope this helps
using web2py on Google App Engine is a great strategy. It lets you get up and running fast, and if you do outgrow the restrictions of GAE then you can move your web2py application elsewhere.
However, keeping this portability means you should stay away from the advanced parts of GAE (Task Queues, Transactions, ListProperty, etc).
The AppEngine uses BigTable as it's datastore backend. Don't try to write a traditional relational-database driven application. BigTable is much more well suited for use as a highly-scalable key-value store. Avoid joins if at all possible.
I wouldn't worry about any of this. After having played with Google App Engine for a while now, I've found that it scales quite well for large data sets. If your data elements are large (i.e. photos), then you'll need to integrate with another service to handle them, but that's probably going to be true no matter what with data of that size. Also, I've found BigTable relatively easy to work with having come from a background entirely in relational databases. Finally, Django is a somewhat hidden, but awesome, "feature" of Google App Engine. If you've never used it, it's a really nice, elegant web framework that makes a lot of common tasks trivial (forms come to mind here).
Google has just released version 1.3.0 of the SDK with support with a new Blobstore API for storage of files up to 50MB. See the post "App Engine SDK 1.3.0 Released Including Support for Larger User Uploads".
What about Google Wave? It's being built on appengine, and once live, real-time translatable chat reaches the corporate sector... I could see it hitting top 1000th... But then again, that's an internal project that gets to do special stuff other appengine apps can't.... Like hanging threads; I think... And whatever else Wave has under the hood...
If you are planning on a 'huge' website, then don't use App Engine. Simple as that. The App Engine is not built to deliver the next top 1000th website.
Allow me to also ask what do you mean by 'huge', how many simultaneous users? Queries per second? DB load?
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Looking to do a very small, quick 'n dirty side project. I like the fact that the Google App Engine is running on Python with Django built right in - gives me an excuse to try that platform... but my question is this:
Has anyone made use of the app engine for anything other than a toy problem? I see some good example apps out there, so I would assume this is good enough for the real deal, but wanted to get some feedback.
Any other success/failure notes would be great.
I have tried app engine for my small quake watch application
http://quakewatch.appspot.com/
My purpose was to see the capabilities of app engine, so here are the main points:
it doesn't come by default with Django, it has its own web framework which is pythonic has URL dispatcher like Django and it uses Django templates
So if you have Django exp. you will find it easy to use
But you can use any pure python framework and Django can be easily added see
http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/django.html
google-app-engine-django (http://code.google.com/p/google-app-engine-django/) project is excellent and works almost like working on a Django project
You can not execute any long running process on server, what you do is reply to request and which should be quick otherwise appengine will kill it
So if your app needs lots of backend processing appengine is not the best way
otherwise you will have to do processing on a server of your own
My quakewatch app has a subscription feature, it means I had to email latest quakes as they happend, but I can not run a background process in app engine to monitor new quakes
solution here is to use a third part service like pingablity.com which can connect to one of your page and which executes the subscription emailer
but here also you will have to take care that you don't spend much time here
or break task into several pieces
It provides Django like modeling capabilities but backend is totally different but for a new project it should not matter.
But overall I think it is excellent for creating apps which do not need lot of background processing.
Edit:
Now task queues can be used for running batch processing or scheduled tasks
Edit:
after working/creating a real application on GAE for a year, now my opnion is that unless you are making a application which needs to scale to million and million of users, don't use GAE. Maintaining and doing trivial tasks in GAE is a headache due to distributed nature, to avoid deadline exceeded errors, count entities or do complex queries requires complex code, so small complex application should stick to LAMP.
Edit:
Models should be specially designed considering all the transactions you wish to have in future, because entities only in same entity group can be used in a transaction and it makes the process of updating two different groups a nightmare e.g. transfer money from user1 to user2 in transaction is impossible unless they are in same entity group, but making them same entity group may not be best for frequent update purposes....
read this http://blog.notdot.net/2009/9/Distributed-Transactions-on-App-Engine
I am using GAE to host several high-traffic applications. Like on the order of 50-100 req/sec. It is great, I can't recommend it enough.
My previous experience with web development was with Ruby (Rails/Merb). Learning Python was easy. I didn't mess with Django or Pylons or any other framework, just started from the GAE examples and built what I needed out of the basic webapp libraries that are provided.
If you're used to the flexibility of SQL the datastore can take some getting used to. Nothing too traumatic! The biggest adjustment is moving away from JOINs. You have to shed the idea that normalizing is crucial.
Ben
One of the compelling reasons I have come across for using Google App Engine is its integration with Google Apps for your domain. Essentially it allows you to create custom, managed web applications that are restricted to the (controlled) logins of your domain.
Most of my experience with this code was building a simple time/task tracking application. The template engine was simple and yet made a multi-page application very approachable. The login/user awareness api is similarly useful. I was able to make a public page/private page paradigm without too much issue. (a user would log in to see the private pages. An anonymous user was only shown the public page.)
I was just getting into the datastore portion of the project when I got pulled away for "real work".
I was able to accomplish a lot (it still is not done yet) in a very little amount of time. Since I had never used Python before, this was particularly pleasant (both because it was a new language for me, and also because the development was still fast despite the new language). I ran into very little that led me to believe that I wouldn't be able to accomplish my task. Instead I have a fairly positive impression of the functionality and features.
That is my experience with it. Perhaps it doesn't represent more than an unfinished toy project, but it does represent an informed trial of the platform, and I hope that helps.
The "App Engine running Django" idea is a bit misleading. App Engine replaces the entire Django model layer so be prepared to spend some time getting acclimated with App Engine's datastore which requires a different way of modeling and thinking about data.
I used GAE to build http://www.muspy.com
It's a bit more than a toy project but not overly complex either. I still depend on a few issues to be addressed by Google, but overall developing the website was an enjoyable experience.
If you don't want to deal with hosting issues, server administration, etc, I can definitely recommend it. Especially if you already know Python and Django.
I think App Engine is pretty cool for small projects at this point. There's a lot to be said for never having to worry about hosting. The API also pushes you in the direction of building scalable apps, which is good practice.
app-engine-patch is a good layer between Django and App Engine, enabling the use of the auth app and more.
Google have promised an SLA and pricing model by the end of 2008.
Requests must complete in 10 seconds, sub-requests to web services required to complete in 5 seconds. This forces you to design a fast, lightweight application, off-loading serious processing to other platforms (e.g. a hosted service or an EC2 instance).
More languages are coming soon! Google won't say which though :-). My money's on Java next.
This question has been fully answered. Which is good.
But one thing perhaps is worth mentioning.
The google app engine has a plugin for the eclipse ide which is a joy to work with.
If you already do your development with eclipse you are going to be so happy about that.
To deploy on the google app engine's web site all I need to do is click one little button - with the airplane logo - super.
Take a look the the sql game, it is very stable and actually pushed traffic limits at one point so that it was getting throttled by Google. I have seen nothing but good news about App Engine, other than hosting you app on servers someone else controls completely.
I used GAE to build a simple application which accepts some parameters, formats and send email. It was extremely simple and fast. I also made some performance benchmarks on the GAE datastore and memcache services (http://dbaspects.blogspot.com/2010/01/memcache-vs-datastore-on-google-app.html ). It is not that fast. My opinion is that GAE is serious platform which enforce certain methodology. I think it will evolve to the truly scalable platform, where bad practices simply not allowed.
I used GAE for my flash gaming site, Bearded Games. GAE is a great platform. I used Django templates which are so much easier than the old days of PHP. It comes with a great admin panel, and gives you really good logs. The datastore is different than a database like MySQL, but it's much easier to work with. Building the site was easy and straightforward and they have lots of helpful advice on the site.
I used GAE and Django to build a Facebook application. I used http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch as my starting point as it has Django 1.1 support. I didn't try to use any of the manage.py commands because I assumed they wouldn't work, but I didn't even look into it. The application had three models and also used pyfacebook, but that was the extent of the complexity. I'm in the process of building a much more complicated application which I'm starting to blog about on http://brianyamabe.com.