Ok, so I really love HAML. Particularly, I love the integration with RedCloth and BlueCloth, so I can use Markdown and Textile intermixed with my HAML.
I also love Python and Django.
So, I would like to use HAML with Django. Now, I already understand that there are some attempts at cloning HAML-like syntax in Python (SHPAML and others). I've tried these, and while they aren't bad, I've found that I really just want the real HAML. Partially for its syntax, but also for things like RedCloth and BlueCloth.
So, my question is, how to make HAML and Django work together?
One solution, I think, would be to create HAML templates, and then compile them into HTML using the command line tool every time they're updated.
Quesiton 1: Will I run into any problems here?
I also wonder if there's a way to get Python and Ruby to play together a little more. One idea I had was actually forking out Ruby processes. This is probably a bad idea, but anyone have any thoughts about this?
Question 2: What about using Python to call the real Ruby HAML?
Finally, if anyone knows of a Python implementation of HAML that is complete, and that supports either Textile or Markdown, as well as plaintext passthru, then let me know.
Question 3: Is there a full translation of HAML to Python including Markdown or Textile support?
Thanks!
Question 1: static HTML files should work finely (unless you plan to use HAML's ruby evaluation feature to dynamically content). I use a similar way on a php website with SASS stylesheets. Just make sure you start HAML in directory watch mode before starting to hack ;)
Question 2: while forking a ruby process to create HTML code is possible, but I don't recommend it you, because initializing a ruby interpreter, and loading required files takes a lot of cpu times, so you better stick with static files. If you need the ruby evaluation feature to include runtime created data into the document, you'd better have a look at eventmachine, and make it a server (so your Django application can connect to it, and request HTML generation, without forking a new interpreter each time).
Question 3: maybe this is the hardest. There's GHRML which is abandoned; SHPAML which only implements a small subset of HAML, DMSL which is currently very experimental, but already supports most of HAML and also calling python code, but lacks Markdown or Textile support. But apparently there's no alternative (yet) to Ruby HAML that supports all the required features.
Try: http://github.com/fitoria/django-haml
I strongly recommend that you do not fork any processes out of your django views, because the overhead is significant.
You should have a persistent ruby process to serve your templates for you, and invoke it from your django code. I leave the IPC technology to you, but the obvious choices would either be some kind of message queuing technology, or speaking HTTP over a socket to the ruby process.
While this could end up being more trouble than it is worth, it is PROBABLY possible to leverage the Java or .NET platform and still run your Django application in Jython or IronPython (with some minor adjustments I'm sure) and also be able to leverage Ruby's HAML gem via jRuby or IronRuby.
I'm sure there will be some quirks in getting this to work, but I'm sure it would be possible.
Again, this is probably a lot more trouble than it's worth (considering that you'd have to move your application to a completely new platform), but it would be a pretty fun project to work on.
Related
We have an in house developed web-based admin console that uses a combination of C CGI and Perl scripts to administer our mail server stack. Of late we have been thinking of cleaning up the code (well, replacing most of it), making the implementation more secure, and improving the overall behavior.
I don't have much programming knowledge, but I use Ruby on and off (mainly for writing erb templates), and hence was thinking of using ruby/rails for developing such an app (off-duty for now, I also need to learn stuff !).
Before blindly picking up a language though, what would you folks suggest ? Please let me know if this is too vague a question, I'll try to supply more information, if needed.
Have you considered writing your applications as Webmin modules?
You get a lot of stuff for free when you do so (users and groups, tons of security features, a pretty big variety of helper functions related to config files, and tons of existing code for most aspects of a UNIX/Linux system). You also get a lot of stuff for nearly free, like action logging, packages and updates via wbm or apt or yum, an online help system, etc.
There are some cons, as well. It's an old codebase, so it has some clunky bits in the API among other places. A lot of the old modules can be a bit hard to grok if you're not an old-school Perl programmer. But, it's a well-maintained codebase, and it's been banged on by millions of users for over a dozen years. It's pretty robust. The UI isn't beautiful, but it is relatively theme-able, and if you're distributing a minimized version it becomes easier to customize the UI.
I suspect you can be up and running a lot faster than starting from scratch or using most existing frameworks that aren't targeted specifically to building systems management interfaces the way Webmin is.
Also, it's BSD licensed, so you can do whatever you want with it, including building a custom commercial app with it (hundreds of companies have done so over the years).
If you already know a bit of ruby, then there's no reason not to use that.
If you're interested specifically in learning another language, then what you're trying to do could be done in pretty much any language/framework, it's just a matter of which one you want to learn.
Without knowing much about your existing application I'd say that this effectively boils down to "which language do you like to work with?".
Python and Ruby are both mature languages with ample library infrastructure. They also boast popular, similar web application frameworks namely Django and Ruby-on-Rails respectively.
Since you are porting an existing Perl app(lets) it may be worthwhile to note that Ruby is relatively more similar to Perl. Not surprising given that Ruby was influenced "primarily by Perl, Smalltalk, Eiffel and Lisp".
django has a nice admin interface
Looking for a python library that handles minifying and merging JS\CSS files together...
As anurag said, Django users can use django-compress.
If you're using Pylons or TurboGears 2.x, there are two real-time options:
MinificationWebHelpers (Realtime minification helpers for CSS/JS which support using Beaker to cache the output)
Minimatic (A fork of MinificationWebHelpers. Some users swear by it but, according to the author of MinificationWebHelpers, the devs are unwilling to cooperate with upstream to merge changes)
To the best of my knowledge, the realtime options for Django and Pylons only do minification and concatenation. They don't parse the Javascript to implement any kind of import/include directive.
If you prefer a batch option, I can't think of anything written specifically in Python, but these are the options I've seen other Python developers using:
Write a Python or shell script that runs a low-level tool like YUI Compressor (Java) or jsmin.py and does any concatenation it doesn't do for you. (One of my projects does this. It doesn't give you import/include directives, but it does get the job done with minimal dependencies.)
RequireJS Optimize (A minification and import-management tool for JS/CSS bundling. Written in Java.)
Juicer used with RequireJS (Requires Ruby and uses JavaDoc-style import declarations in addition to RequireJS calls, but makes the Java dependency (for YUI Compressor) optional.)
Ender.js or Jam (Both written in Node.js)
If a pure Python solution is really important, my advice is to either go with the realtime options (easier for development with things like paster --reload) or write a command for setup.py or paster which uses jsmin.py and cssmin to do the heavy lifting.
Note: Due to a lack of documentation, the setup.py link points to one of my blog posts.
This SO answer may also be useful:
Python script for minifying CSS?
If you're using Django you can use django-compress.
Check this simple python script.
http://github.com/hkasera/minify
It minifies js as well as css files too. It even stores detailed log files illustrating the errors and warnings during the process.
Hope it may help!
I'm lucky enough to have full control over the architecture of my company's app, and I've decided to scrap our prototype written in Ruby/Rails and start afresh in Python. This is for a few reasons: I want to learn Python, I prefer the syntax and I've basically said "F**k it, let's do it."
So, baring in mind this is going to be a pretty intensive app, I'd like to hear your opinions on the following:
Generic web frameworks
ORM/Database Layer (perhaps to work with MongoDB)
RESTful API w/ oAuth/xAuth authentication
Testing/BDD support
Message queue (I'd like to keep this in Python if possible)
The API is going to need to interface with a Clojure app to handle some internal data stuff, and interface with the message queue, so if it's not Python it'd be great to have some libraries to it.
TDD/BDD is very important to me, so the more tested, the better!
It'll be really interesting to read your thoughts on this. Much appreciated.
My best,
Jamie
Frameworks
OK, so I'm a little biased here as I currently make extensive use of Django and organise the Django User Group in London so bear that in mind when reading the following.
Start with Django because it's a great gateway drug. Lots of documentation and literature, a very active community of people to talk to and lots of example code around the web.
That's a completely non-technical reason. Pylons is probably purer in terms of Python philosophy (being much more a collection of discrete bits and pieces) but lots of the technical stuff is personal preference, at least until you get into Python more. Compare the very active Django tag on Stack Overflow with that of pylons or turbogears though and I'd argue getting started is simply easier with Django irrespective of anything to do with code.
Personally I default to Django, but find that an increasing amount of time I actually opt for writing using simpler micro frameworks (think Sinatra rather than Rails). Lots of things to choose from (good list here, http://fewagainstmany.com/blog/python-micro-frameworks-are-all-the-rage). I tend to use MNML (because I wrote parts of it and it's tiny) but others are actively developed. I tend to do this for small, stupid web services which are then strung together with a Django project in the middle serving people.
Worth noting here is appengine. You have to work within it's limitations and it's not designed for everything but it's a great way to just play with Python and get something up and working quickly. It makes a great testbed for learning and experimentation.
Mongo/ORM
On the MongoDB front you'll likely want to look at the basic python mongo library ( http://api.mongodb.org/python/ ) first to see if it has everything you need. If you really do want something a little more ORM like then mongoengine (http://hmarr.com/mongoengine/) might be what you're looking for. A bunch of folks are also working on making Django specifically integrate more seamlessly with nosql backends. Some of that is for future Django releases, but django-norel ( http://www.allbuttonspressed.com/projects/django-nonrel) has code now.
For relational data SQLAlchemy ( http://www.sqlalchemy.org/) is good if you want something standalone. Django's ORM is also excellent if you're using Django.
API
The most official Oauth library is python-oauth2 ( http://github.com/simplegeo/python-oauth2), which handily has a Django example as part of it's docs.
Piston ( http://bitbucket.org/jespern/django-piston/wiki/Home) is a Django app which provides lots of tools for building APIs. It has the advantage of being pretty active and well maintained and in production all over the place. Other projects exist too, including Dagny ( http://zacharyvoase.github.com/dagny/) which is an early attempt to create something akin to RESTful resources in Rails.
In reality any Python framework (or even just raw WSGI code) should be reasonably good for this sort of task.
Testing
Python has unittest as part of it's standard library, and unittest2 is in python 2.7 (but backported to previous versions too http://pypi.python.org/pypi/unittest2/0.1.4). Some people also like Nose ( http://code.google.com/p/python-nose/), which is an alternative test runner with some additional features. Twill ( http://twill.idyll.org/) is also nice, it's a "a simple scripting language for Web browsing", so handy for some functional testing. Freshen ( http://github.com/rlisagor/freshen) is a port of cucumber to Python. I haven't yet gotten round to using this in anger, but a quick look now suggests it's much better than when I last looked.
I actually also use Ruby for high level testing of Python apps and apis because I love the combination of celerity and cucumber. But I'm weird and get funny looks from other Python people for this.
Message Queues
For a message queue, whatever language I'm using, I now always use RabbitMQ. I've had some success with stompserver in the past but Rabbit is awesome. Don't worry that it's not itself written in Python, neither is PostgresSQL, Nginx or MongoDB - all for good reason. What you care about are the libraries available. What you're looking for here is py-amqplib ( http://barryp.org/software/py-amqplib/) which is a low level library for talking amqp (the protocol for talking to rabbit as well as other message queues). I've also used Carrot ( http://github.com/ask/carrot/), which is easier to get started with and provides a nicer API. Think bunny in Ruby if you're familiar with that.
Environment
Whatever bits and pieces you decide to use from the Python ecosystem I'd recommend getting to who pip and virtualenv ( http://clemesha.org/blog/2009/jul/05/modern-python-hacker-tools-virtualenv-fabric-pip/ - note that fabric is also cool, but not essential and these docs are out of date on that tool). Think about using Ruby without gem, bundler or rvm and you'll be in the right direction.
Ok, you might be making a mistake, the same one I made when I started with python.
Before you decide on a thing like django, which is an excellent, yet atypical python web framework, spend an night cuddled up with:
This, is a good start. Make sure you do A little Werkzeug watching , Then check out
some classic WebOb. Maybe, if you feel the fire in the blood, and you might, wsgi is a bit flawed, but only to the gods, check out Flask
I'm not saying use it, Django is beautiful too, but if you don't know python, and you go through django, you run the risk of learning a framework.
WSGI is super straightforward. You'll find out about Paste, and Pastescript, and Pylons.
Then, make your decision. It'll be much easier learning stuff doing bare bones wsgi or Flask, stuff like variable assignment, using the interpreter, style concerns, testing, on 3 files for a couple of nights, instead of django. Take 2 nights. Then you'll see the great similarity between python web frameworks, instead of the differences. Hell, you might even roll with Flask.
Just some advice, I did the same thing with ruby, going in through Rails, and... well, strong words were said.
Language, then basic wsgi and testing, then pick your framework and roll
I'm new to python myself, and plan to get more in depth with it this year. I've had a few false starts at this, but always professional needs bring me back to PHP. The few times I've done some development, I've had really good experiences with web2py as a python framework. It's quite well done, and complete in features, while still being extremely lightweight. The database layer seems to be very flexible and mature.
As for TDD/BDD and the rest of your questions, I don't have any experience with python options, but would be interested to hear what others say.
I am using Twisted Framework based Nevow library for python based web app.
All your criteria fit into this single framework.
I want to start writing a http proxy that will modify responses according to some rules/filters I will configure. However, before I start coding it, I want to make sure I'm making the right choice in going with Python. Later, this tool would have to be able to process a lot of requests, so, I would like to know I can count on it later on to be able to perform when "push comes to shove".
As long as the bulk of the processing uses Python's built-in modules it should be fine as far as performance. The biggest strength of Python is its clear syntax and ease of testing/maintainability. If you find that one section of your code is slowing down the process, you can rewrite that section and use it as a C module, while keeping the bulk of your control code in Python.
However if you're looking to make the most optimized Python Code you may want to check out this SO post.
Yes, I think you will find Python to be perfectly adequate for your needs. There's a huge number of web frameworks, WSGI libraries, etc. to choose from, or learn from when building your own.
There's an interesting post on the Python History blog about how Python was supporting high performance websites in 1996.
This will depend on the library you use more than the language itself. The twisted framework is known to scale well.
Here's a proxy server example in python/twisted to get you started.
Bottomline: choose your third party tools wisely and I'm sure you'll be fine.
Python performs pretty well for most tasks, but you'll need to change the way you program if you're used to other languages. See Python is not Java for more info.
If plain old CPython doesn't give the performance you need, you have other options as well.
As has been mentioned, you can extend it in C (using a tool like swig or Pyrex). I also hear good things about PyPy as well, but bear in mind that it uses a restricted subset of Python. Lastly, a lot of people use psyco to speed up performance.
This is a follow-up to two questions I asked a week or so back. The upshot of those was that I was building a prototype of an AI-based application for the web, and I wondered what language(s) to use. The conclusion seemed to be that I should go for something like python and then convert any critical bits into something faster like Java or C/C++.
That sounds fine to me, but I'm wondering now whether python is really the right language to use for building a web application. Most web applications I've worked on in the past were C/C++ CGI and then php. The php I found much easier to work with as it made linking the user interface to the back-end so much easier, and also it made more logical sense to me.
I've not used python before, but what I'm basically wondering is how easy is CGI programming in python? Will I have to go back to the tedious way of doing it in C/C++ where you have to store HTML code in templates and have the CGI read them in and replace special codes with appropriate values or is it possible to have the templates be the code as with php?
I'm probably asking a deeply ignorant question here, for which I apologise, but hopefully someone will know what I'm getting at! My overall question is: is writing web applications in python a good idea, and is it as easy as it is with php?
Python is a good choice.
I would avoid the CGI model though - you'll pay a large penalty for the interpreter launch on each request. Most Python web frameworks support the WSGI standard and can be hooked up to servers in a myriad of ways, but most live in some sort of long-running process that the web server communicates with (via proxying, FastCGI, SCGI, etc).
Speaking of frameworks, the Python landscape is ripe with them. This is both good and bad. There are many fine options but it can be daunting to a newcomer.
If you are looking for something that comes prepackaged with web/DB/templating integration I'd suggest looking at Django, TurboGears or Pylons. If you want to have more control over the individual components, look at CherryPy, Colubrid or web.py.
As for whether or not it is as "easy as PHP", that is subjective. Usually it is encouraged to keep your templates and application logic separate in the Python web programming world, which can make your life easier. On the other hand, being able to write all of the code for a page in a PHP file is another definition of "easy".
Good luck.
"how easy is CGI programming in python?" Easier than C, that's for sure. Python is easier because -- simply -- it's an easier language to work with than C. First and foremost: no memory allocation-deallocation. Beyond that, the OO programming model is excellent.
Beyond the essential language simplicity, the Python WSGI standard is much easier to cope with than the CGI standard.
However, raw CGI is a huge pain when compared with the greatly simplified world of an all-Python framework (TurboGears, CherryPy, Django, whatever.)
The frameworks impose a lot of (necessary) structure. The out-of-the-box experience for a CGI programmer is that it's too much to learn. True. All new things are too much to learn. However, the value far exceeds the investment.
With Django, you're up and running within minutes. Seriously. django-admin.py startproject and you have something you can run almost immediately. You do have to design your URL's, write view functions and design page templates. All of which is work. But it's less work than CGI in C.
Django has a better architecture than PHP because the presentation templates are completely separated from the processing. This leads to some confusion (see Syntax error whenever I put python code inside a django template) when you want to use the free-and-unconstrained PHP style on the Django framework.
linking the user interface to the back-end
Python front-end (Django, for example) uses Python view functions. Those view functions can contain any Python code at all. That includes, if necessary, modules written in C and callable from Python.
That means you can compile a CLIPS module with a Python-friendly interface. It becomes something available to your Python code with the import statement.
Sometimes, however, that's ineffective because your Django pages are waiting for the CLIPS engine to finish. An alternative is to use something like a named pipe.
You have your CLIPS-based app, written entirely in C, reading from a named pipe. Your Django application, written entirely in Python, writes to that named pipe. Since you've got two independent processes, you'll max out all of your cores pretty quickly like this.
I would suggest Django, but given that you ask for something "as easy as it is with php" then you must take a look at PSP (Python Server Pages).
While Django is a complete framework for doing websites, PSP can be used in the same way than PHP, without any framework.
It is easier to write web-apps in python than it's in php. Particularly because python is not a broken language.
Pick up some web framework that supports mod_wsgi or roll out your own. WSGI apps are really easy to deploy after you get a hold from doing it.
If you want templates then genshi is about the best templating engine I've found for python and you can use it however you like.