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Closed 12 years ago.
After working for on JAVA for a long time now i feel like also learn some other language just for a change. This time i want to spend some time learning and reading one of the dynamic languages.
Which is the most appropriate one that covers most of the features offered by dynamic languages and the syntax which probably is fun and also one that is closer to the syntax used by most of the dynamic languages.
BR,
Keshav
Python is always fun.Go for it.
Javascript is by far the most useful of dynamic languages for real-world practical work - not only is it irreplaceable for "client-side" work on the user's browser, but Node.js is rapidly making it very interesting for server-side work, too. Sure, it has many issues, but a book such as Crockford's Javascript: the good parts will help you avoid many of them.
JS's syntax of course is quite different from that of dynamic languages such as Python or Ruby, which try to avoid braces and semicolons (which you'd better not avoid in JS: it tries to guess on your behalf but too often it guesses wrong!-). There is really no "syntax used by most of the dynamic languages" given these huge syntax differences (which grow if you throw into the mix Scheme, Erlang, Perl, PHP, Tcl, ...), so that part of your specs is moot.
Second most useful today is probably Python -- as Allison Randall (program chair of OSCON and a well-known Perl guru) put it, Python has surprisingly become something of a "default language" in many fields. For example, the SEC is considering a regulation to mandate publication of algorithms used in stock trading, and their initially proposed language for such a publication is "of course" Python. As this post explains,
Why Python? The SEC actually asks for
comments on whether they should
mandate Perl, Java or something else
instead. I use Perl quite extensively,
but the idea that Perl is a suitable
language for implementing a
transparency requirement is laughable.
Perl is a model of powerful but
unreadable and cryptic code. As for
Java and C-Sharp, there is little
point in having open source code if
the interpreter is not also open
source. I do not use Python myself,
but it appears to be a good choice for
the task at hand.
This is what Allison meant by "default language", I think: not necessarily the one you'll choose to implement a given task (e.g. the above post's author would prefer using Perl), but a language everybody's supposed to be able to read in order to understand an algorithm that is published or otherwise presented -- as Bruce Eckel (deservedly-best-selling author of books on C++ and Java) puts it here,
Python is executable pseudocode.
You can look at the "executable" part as a bonus (it does guarantee lack of ambiguity, which non-executable pseudocode might lack;-) even though large systems such as reddit and youtube have been implemented in it.
At the other extreme, if you're not necessarily looking for immediately useful knowledge, but for mind-broadening, Scheme or Erlang might suit you best (but the syntax in each case is quite different from most other languages, be warned;-).
However, in that case, I'd suggest Mozart, to go with the masterpiece that is Van Roy's and Haridi's Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming (that book is plenty motivation to learn Mozart, just like SICP is to learn Scheme -- indeed, I've described CTMCP as "SICP for the 21st century"!-).
Learn [one of] these:
Ruby
Python
Clojure (a modern Lisp)
JavaScript (yes, this is a great dynamic language!)
Don't transition via a semi-dynamic, semi-Java language. Just jump in and try a dynamic language. In order to really understand what else is going on, you have to get out of the Java world by jumping in, not by sticking your toes into the water.
Yes, I know Clojure is on the JVM and that Ruby and Python have implementations on the JVM as well. But the runtime implementation of a language does not define the language. Learn the language, and you can pick a favorite runtime.
Since you have a Java background, Groovy might be worth a shot.
It's a lot of fun :)
You may want to start with Groovy (http://groovy.codehaus.org/), as that is a language that is close to Java, so you can use what you know, but then start to gain experience to using functions as first-class objects, for example.
Then, once you understand Groovy then you can start to experiment with Ruby and Python.
Ahah, nice troll :) (with ruby and python tags).
In my humble opinion, after trying many languages, my favorite is Ruby with Ruby on Rails.
Try Jython, if you like Java, this way you can both ;-)
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Closed 10 years ago.
Someone told me once, that programmers tend to learn one scripting language properly and ignore or dislike other scripting languages. Do you have similar experiences?
I'm using Python as my choice for scripting for few years, however, I'm sure that there are many existing and emerging languages that could impress the Pythonistas. Can you recommend scripting languages that would be interesting and useful to learn besides of Python?
Look, Python pretty much has all you need (in my opinion) for application programming. You can write anything from a protocol stack to YouTube, from media players to 3D games and graphics and you get excellent performance.
It occupies the same niche as some of these other mentioned languages:
C, you have access to almost all of the useful C/C++ libraries. The only reason I would pick to write something in C over Python is because I needed the performance gain. Even then, I would probably prototype it in Python first; it's much easier to revise your design when your application is written in Python.
Ruby, there is no good reason to ever use Ruby instead of Python.
Perl, it's great for some particular kinds of tasks, but if you're a fan of consistent, readable and sane programming styles you will hate looking at about 95% of existing Perl code. I don't know if this is because the people who program in Perl tend to be (in my experience) sys admins first and programmers second, or because Perl has a design philosophy that allows for multiple distinct ways to achieve the same effect.
Given that, I would say that if you are going to learn another language, make sure it gives you the ability to do something new. There are two scripting languages that I would recommend for you to learn:
Bash, what a joy it is to manipulate your filesystem with a combination of for loops and pipes. Bash programming doesn't give you more than what you can already do with Python, but if you are a *nix user you will experience great gains in your daily productivity.
Javascript, being able to write browser-based applications is a useful skill and almost definitely the way most applications will be done in the future. The Javascript/browser environment is set to gain a whole host of capabilities in the coming few years, from audio manipulation to OpenGL graphics, and some very fast engines are either in the works or already available (like V8, which powers the Chrome browser and compiles Javascript to native byte code.) Have you seen Quake2 ported to WebGL?
My answer basically boils down to this: first, learn languages that are useful.
Ruby - what it enables and does with blocks is really interesting, and quite foreign to python based programming
Erlang - the functional language has a lot of interesting examples and it will definitely make your head work differently afterwards (in a good way)
Javascript - yes, I'm serious. ALthough there's a fair number of grips to be had with this prototype language, it does some really interesting things with that prototyping and just slightly differently than Ruby and/or Python. And a ton of folks are pouring big money into making Javascript a outstandingly fast scripting language.
I would recommend learning Haskell and a dialect of Lisp such as Scheme or Common Lisp, if you master either of those you'll gain insight into how things are accomplished with the functional paradigm and it'll help out your Python as well.
Here are some languages categorized by paradigms I'd learn:
Imperative/Procedural languages:
C
Functional paradigm languages:
Haskell
Common Lisp/Scheme
Similar object oriented languages:
Ruby
ECMAScript
Other:
Perl
I would advise you to stay away from PHP unless you really need the work. You would probably want to run back to Python.
Scripting languages are so similar that the marginal benefit of moving from one scripting language to another is usually low. So it's unsurprising that people wouldn't bother to learn more than one. Nevertheless, in my career I have passed through times when my main scripting language (in roughly chronological order) was
Awk
Tcl
Icon
Ksh
Lua
I also used Perl and Python but never found them enough better to be worth switching to.
If you want to check out another scripting language, I recommend Lua, because
It's powerful and remarkably simple, having the best power-to-weight ratio of all languages named here.
Like Tcl it was designed from the beginning to incorporate C code seamlessly. This facility works extremely well and greatly extends the range of problems for which it is useful (see Adobe Lightroom, World of Warcraft, Garry's Mod, CHDK).
The implementation is highly performant and brilliantly engineered. If you want to learn something about how languages are implemented, it will repay careful study.
If, however, your goal is to learn a new language to expand your mind, learn something else besides a scripting language. For example, learn Haskell and pick up some mind-blowing ideas (many stolen from the same sources that Guido stole from), or learn C and really understand exactly what's happening on the hardware.
The only relatively unbiased answer you can really look for is probably statistical, and you would still have to account for the natural tendency of people to follow the path of least resistance once one is found or carved.
How many people learnt Python to a decent level, found the language resonates with the way they want to work, then move to something else because the language or the ecosystem, or both, don't support their needs?
I'd say probably a single digit percentage of the educated userbase, wouldn't be surprised if it amounted to less than 5%.
Unless you have work related prospects that involve a different language, or you need to move sideways for similar reasons, I'd say you're probably best off learning something complimentary to Python rather than similar or equivalent.
C++ for low-level or computationally intensive tasks, CUDA if your field can take advantage of it (med-viz, CGI etc.), whatever flavour of shell/sysadmin oriented scripting and hacks float where you work (bash, tcl, awk or whatever else) and so on.
Personally the reason I haven't bothered past a first glance with ruby, php, or a number of other languages is simply that it's better ROI to keep working on my python skills than picking up something that offers mostly the same qualities just in different forms.
If you really want to learn something else for the sake of opening your mind up a bit, and want to stick to "scripting", then LUA was an interesting toy for me for a while, mostly for the ridiculous performance you can squeeze out of a relatively easy integration process, and because it is a rather different set of tracks compared to Python. That, and the fact WoW plugins had to be written in LUA ;)
I'll give an honest answer from my perspective.
No.
Having started scripting using batch, bash, and Perl, discovering Python was discovering precisely what I'd want from a scripting language (and more, but that's off topic). It integrates with familiar Unix interfaces, is modular, doesn't force any particular paradigm, cross platform and under active development. The same can be said of no other scripting language I know of.
The only other scripting languages I'd consider using is Lua or Scheme, for their smaller footprints and suitability for embedding, Python can be a little hefty. However they're hardly suitable for the more general purpose shell and other forms of scripting.
Update0
I just noticed mentions of Ruby and PHP in other answers, these both slipped my mind, because I'd never consider using them. Ruby is slower and not quite as popular, and PHP is more C/Perl like, with flatter interfaces, which comes with performance boons of its own. Using these alternatives to Python is a matter of taste.
To answer your first question: Do people learn one language and then ignore or dislike others?
Well, if you know one language well, you will need to see great advantages to move to another.
I started out using perl and eventually thought that there must be easier way to do some things. I picked up python and stopped using perl almost at once.
A little while later I thought I'd try ruby and learned a bit about that. The advantages over using python weren't big enough to switch, so I decided to stick with python. If I had started out using ruby, I'd probably be using that still.
If you are using python, I don't think you will easily find another scripting language that will win you over.
On the other hand, if you learn functional programming, you will probably learn a few new things, some of them will even be useful in your python programming, since a few things in python seems to be inspired by functional programming and knowing how to use them will make you a better programmer in general and a better python programmer too.
Learn a Lisp. Whether it's "scripting" or not, Eric Raymond had the right of it when he wrote:
"Lisp is worth learning for the
profound enlightenment experience you
will have when you finally get it;
that experience will make you a better
programmer for the rest of your days,
even if you never actually use Lisp
itself a lot."
The programming paradigm needed to be highly effective in Lisp is sufficiently unlike what you use with Python day-to-day that the perspective it gives is very, very much worth it.
And within Lisps, my choice? Clojure; like other Lisps, its macro system gives you capabilities comparable (actually superior) to the excellent metaprogramming in Python, but Clojure in particular has a focus on batteries-included practicality (and an intelligent, opinionated design) which will be familiar to anyone fond of GvR's instincts. Moreover, Clojure's strengths are extremely disjoint from Python's -- in particular, it shines at highly-multithreaded, CPU-bound concurrent programming, which is one of Python's weaknesses -- so having both in your toolbox increases the chance you'll have the right tool when a tricky job comes along.
(Is it scripting? In my view, that's pretty academic these days; if you have a REPL where you can type code and get an immediate response, modify the state of a running program, or experiment with an API, I see a language as "scripting" enough).
I would learn a statically typed language with very powerful type expression capabilities and awesome concurrency.
One of the following would be a good choice (in order of my preference):
Scala
F#
Haskell
Ocaml
Erlang
Typed languages like the above make you think different. Also these languages have REPLs so they can be used as a scripting language although truthfully I'm not really sure what the definition is of "scripting" language is.
Python is missing good concurrency builtin to the language so knowing how to deal with concurrency for many python programmers is a challenge.
I have found that strongly typed languages scale better for big projects for many reasons:
Because types are so important they become an invaluable way to communicate the problem
Refactoring in these languages is much much easier.
Automatic Serialization is sometimes easier too (although for Haskell thats less true).
A lot less time spent on writing assertions on type checking.
Browsing the code is easier because most IDEs will allow you click on and go to different types
I'm actually learning Scala after Python. From "Programming in Scala":
The name Scala stands for “scalable language.” The language is so named because it was designed to grow with the demands of its users. You can apply Scala to a wide range of programming tasks, from writing small scripts to building large systems.
Integration of object-oriented and functional programming inside the language with expressive strong static type system is interesting by itself. And yes, you can use Scala as scripting language. I feel uncomfortable coding in languages with dynamic typing discipline so Scala seems to be a good alternative. Besides its complexity at the initial learning stage.
If you satisfied with dynamic typing discipline take a look at the roots. Smalltalkof course. Try Squeak with Squeak by Example companion book or its open-source fork Pharo with Pharo by Example book for the start.
Ruby/Groovy/Perl if you'd like to stick to traditional scripting practices.
Otherwise I'd heartily recommend you Clojure and Scala - two of the more innovative programing languages of the past few years.
If you are already familiar with Python, you are unlikely to find something compelling in the same niche, although Ruby does have a very strong and vocal following that seems to like it very much. Perhaps you should consider a scripting language that fills a different role, such as BASH shell script for quick, simple scripts that don't need the complexity of Python or JavaScript which runs in the browser.
I can't say that I agree with wiping Ruby off the map... Ruby fixed every problem that perl had as far as syntax goes... I loved Python first but let ruby get a little more mature and it will get in the the fray more and more... Why do I support Ruby strongly? just step away from python for a few months and then give Ruby a chance... I was a Ruby hater when I was a python guy. But I can't hardly stand to use python at this point. One day someone is gonna clean up the GC and toss in some native threads and everybody better watch out.
off the rant, Python is a full featured, not just good, Great Language... Perl... what a mess... I don't know how Perl can look at itself in the mirror standing next to any other mainstream scripting language... PHP is much prettier... At least Perl is fast, right...(CPAN never hurt it either) if Speed is the real issue there are other interpreters that juice it up a bit... Jython, jRuby, PyPy... the list goes one, screw Bash...
I'm a newbie to programming and I've decided to start with Python. Just curious though, is it enough/recommended to learn Python from online tutorials or from books? I want to go further than simple "Hello World!" programs. I'm not sure if books will actually teach you how to make more advanced programs.
One example is Exif-py. How do you even start programming a program like this? Do you just sit down and start writing the code, or do you have to search for APIs or anything? I went through the code briefly and it all looked alien to me.
I'm not really sure how to express my questions into words, so do check back because I'll edit my question if the right words come to me.
Well, I learnt all my Python from online sources (not just tutorials, but reference documentation, blog posts and other texts). It's certainly possible, although some people prefer the "guided" way a book teaches you, particularly people new to programming (at that point I had already been programming for years).
To create a program such as Exif.py, you would first have to know what you must do in broad terms BEFORE starting to program. You would study the EXIF format, then figure out how that is put into the image files, then you would have to formulate that in terms of the language you're using (in this case, Python). This usually requires that you're already familiar with it, otherwise it'll be a fairly slow process.
I'd suggest starting with simpler programs to begin with, or maybe follow a book such as Dive Into Python (free online), seeing as you're new to programming, and need to not only learn the language, but to think like a programmer.
The tutorials are there to teach you the language syntax and the standard library, not really on how to solve a particular programming problem. Think of what you learn there as your toolbox.
I think I understand what you are saying. You want to break above and beyond the simple applications and write your own stuff, right? Well, first you need to figure out what it is you want to make. Then comes the hard part; how are you going to make it? I'd suggest starting by trying to break it down into a number of small simple problems instead of tackling it as one large problem.
If you are trying to find examples of larger projects, I'd suggest looking at the Python Cheeseshop (package index) and download a few packages you've heard of to see how they did it. Also, people often post handy pieces of code on their personal blogs and that shows up on PlanetPython.
If stuff like recursion, modules, classes, iteration, exceptions, dictionaries, are indeed new to you, I suggest How to Think Like a Computer Scientist in Python (lovingly abbreviated as ThinkCSPy in the community ;-).
It is a bit outdated - for best results, use Python 2.6 or lower, but then again 3.0 is not that different.
EDIT: If ThinkCSPy has little to teach you, try Dive Into Python. It's advanced and pretty "real-world", but step-by-step.
If by 'newbie to programming' you mean that you just started it last week or something along the lines, then maybe you might want to give the MIT OpenCourseWare Introduction to Computer Science videos (and homework!) a bit of your time.
The opencourse covers the syntax of the Python language, some helpful hints and general do's and don'ts that apply to any programming paradigm.
Though, if by 'newbie to programming', that you already know the basic concepts you need to start writing basic programs (like adding, subtracting, multiplying, logical operations, functions etc).
If so, Project Euler is particularly good for exercising that cranial muscle in problem solving via programming, though most of the problems on the site require you at also have knowledge of mathematics (and if you don't, at least know how to google).
Just remember, if you get stuck on anything don't get put down! It's all part of learning! If you're really stuck, search SO!
There are a few very good online resources:
The Python Tutorial.
Dive Into Python. Python from novice to pro.
Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python
Another list of resources: Essential Python Reading List.
Most Python books I've seen so far are "not that good" - but that depends
on your background / prior knowledge about Python and programming.
You study the EXIF format, study the GIF/JPEG format, open the binary file, scan it and get the data out.
I'm currently reading a great book called 'Programming Collective Intelligence' by Toby Segaran (which i highly recommend)
The code examples are all written in Python, and as I have already learnt one new language this year (graduating from VB.net to C#) i'm not keen to jump on another learning curve.
This leaves my with the issue of translating the python examples into C#.
Question is: How critical is it that the code stay in python? Are there thing in python that I can't do in a normal managed statically typed language?
One challenge you'll find is that not only are the algorithms implemented in Python, but the book makes extensive use of Python libraries like BeautifulSoup, Numpy, PIL, and others (see appendix A).
I doubt there are any specifics of the algorithms that you couldn't port to another language, but you'll have trouble working through the exercises. Also, to translate the code, you'll have to learn Python at least a little bit, no?
I suggest you just dive in and learn Python. You can use IronPython if you have any concern about interoperability with your C# projects.
You can do the same things in all Turing-complete languages. Here is an example for rendering a Mandelbrot fractal in SQL. The example shows: Even if you can use any language, the effort will be different.
So my guess is that the code will become much longer since Python is so flexible and open.
I suggest translating them to C#. I have been porting chapter 2 "Recommendations" to VB.Net. Along the way I'm learning Python as a side-effect. Toby does some amazing things with Python lists.
Dealing with the the extra Python libraries is another story. Ndelicious is a close match to pyDelicious, but it is missing a few key features (popular posts!).
Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/353/
I know you explicitly say you don't want to learn Python (this year), but translating the Python examples to C# will definitely be a much steeper curve. Just dive in!
The book is about algorithms, not the details of programming, and the language of choice is just to make the examples concrete. As the author says, "The code examples in this book are written in Python... but I provide explanations of all the algorithms so that programmers of other languages can follow." (p. xv)
Python is a great language and easy to learn, but I suspect the difficulties in applying ideas from the book will not be in the translating of the code to another language or set of libraries, but in understanding the ideas and modifying the code to suite your needs. I think there are two main reasons to stay with a language you're familiar with: 1) when your code doesn't work, if you're writing in an unfamiliar language, you won't know where to start looking for errors, e.g. if you're like most people you'll even start wondering if it's due to a bug in Python, which it won't be, but you'll wonder and it will distract. 2) There are just natural limits to how much you can remember in a certain length of time; and learning a language at the same time will give you twice as much to remember.
It depends though how well you know C#, and what you lose by leaving it.
Python seems to be to AI programming what LISP was for for many decades. Russel/Norvig's famous book AI: A Modern Approach also provides lots of examples in Python.
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I'm a C# .NET developer and I work on mostly ASP.NET projects.
I want to learn a new programming language,
to improve my programming skills by experiencing a new language,
to see something different then microsoft environment,
and maybe to think in a different way.
I focus on two languages for my goal. Python and Ruby.
Which one do you offer for me ?
Pros and cons of them on each other?
Is it worth learning them ?
EDIT : Sorry I editted my post but not inform here,
Ruby on Rails replaced with Ruby.
Both languages are powerful and fun. Either would be a useful addition to your tool box.
Python has a larger community and probably more mature documentation and libraries. Its object-orientation is a little inconsistent and feels (to me, IMHO) like something that was bolted on to the language. You can alter class behaviour at runtime (monkey-patching) but not for the precompiled classes and it's generally frowned-upon.
Ruby might be a little more different to your current experience: it has some flavour of Smalltalk (method-calling is more correctly message-sending for example). Its object-orientation is built-in from scratch, all classes are open to modification and it's an accepted - if slightly scary - practise. The community is smaller, the libraries less mature and documentation coverage is less.
Both languages will have some level of broken backward compatibility in their next majopr releases, both have .Net implementations (IronPython is production, IronRuby getting there). Both have web frameworks that reflect their strengths (search SO for the Django/Rails debate).
If I'd never seen Ruby, I'd be very happy working in Python, and have done so without suffering when necessary. I always found myself wishing I could do the work in Ruby. But that's my opinion, YMMV.
Edit: Come to think of it, and even though it pains me, if you're seeking to leverage your knowledge of the .Net framework, you might be best off looking at IronPython, as it's more mature than the Ruby equivalent.
First... good for you for wanting to broaden your knowledge! Second, you are comparing a language (Python) with a web framework (Ruby on Rails).
I think your best option is to try a few different frameworks in both Python and Ruby, do the same fairly simple task in each, and only then pick which one you'd like to learn more about. Rails is nice for Ruby, but it's not the only one out there. For Python I like Pylons and Django.
Pros and cons: Ruby is a little cleaner, language-wise, than Python. Python has a much larger set of modules.
Is it worth learning? Yes, to both Python and Ruby.
If you're a beginner, I would recommend you try Django if you decide to start learning Python. Of course if you decide Ruby is your choice of flavor, Rails is the obvious way to go. Whichever language you choose, I can assure you it will be a good choice.
Having said that, my personal choice is Python. I like the language, I like the community, and I use Python for almost every occasion. I use it for command-line apps, GUI apps, and I use it for web apps (Django). Oh and I use it for system administration scripts on Windows and Linux as well.
Having said that as well, I would recommend you learn a language like Haskell or Lisp as well. That will really open your eyes to a new perspective to programming. Furthermore, since you say you are mostly familiar with the .Net framework, I would really recommend you start with F# since you'll already be familiar with the libraries and it will make the transition much more smoother. Either way, good luck.
It's always valuable to learn a new programming language. And both Python and Ruby are good ones to know. It's important to note that while Python is a language, Ruby on Rails is a framework. IMHO, you should learn Ruby before you learn Rails.
Go try ruby! to see if you like it. If you do, then try Rails. Otherwise, try Python. Both are similarly useful. To me, Ruby is more "fun". If you like Lisp, you'll probably like Ruby. If you like C, you might prefer Python. Try them both!
Rule of thumb - Python if you like strict rules and Ruby if you hate them.
Another one: if you adore JavaScript - Ruby is your choice :)
What? No mention of IronPython?
IronPython is the flagship language of the DLR. It allows you to use all the familiar .NET libraries, but through Python.
I would definitely try Python and IronPython. You'll learn a lot and might even sneak it into your current projects (you can embed an IronPython engine in a .NET application).
If you're looking to learn Ruby on Rails, the guides site has a great guide for getting started and the further guides for improving your rails-fu.
Also, Tore Darell has written a Survivor's Guide for Ruby on Rails which could prove useful to you too.
I'd get in on Ruby. Seems to have a larger (or at least more active) community, the pace of new projects & continued development is second-to-none, and the learning resources seem to outnumber & outpace those of Python. I could be wrong, but these are my impressions.